This interview with Frank Field (Labour MP for Birkenhead) was conducted today on behalf of the CEP and the English Standard. Many thanks to Mr Field for sparing us the time.
ES: First of all on behalf of the CEP and the English movement I’d like to thank you for all your efforts for England and the English.
FF: Pleasure
ES: Why is it that you’re just about the only MP who seems to care about England and the English?
FF: Perhaps it’s just as well most MPs don’t try and look into the future, but also those who do might be frightened by the prospect and certainly from Labours point of view people I think wrongly see that once we get devolution for England Labour won’t be able to win – in England. Where I think if we get in first and genuinely see as one of our roles to promote the English interest. It’s one of those game changing moments, when people might change their political allegiance.
ES: The English seem to be getting a raw deal on just about everything, in comparison with folks of the other home nations – why aren’t MPs that represent English constituencies up in arms about it? Aren’t they failing their constituents?
FF: I just don’t understand it – Scottish members, Scottish Labour members are much more interested in debating the English question than English MPs are. So I literally do not know the answer to your question.
ES: It’s the same with the media. The Scottish media is much more open to discussing the English question than well, what is the British or English media.
FF: Really? I didn’t know that, interesting isn’t it?
ES: Frustrating and interesting. Most MPs don’t even able to say the word England, even the Prime Minister…
FF: No, It’s very interesting how before you had to say you were British. This is another area where the voters are way ahead of their representatives. When that survey that IPPR did recently showed that people are quite comfortable identifying themselves as English.
ES: Why wouldn’t they? Why is that such a shock to people?
FF: Well I think that part of it is that everyone in public talked about ‘British’ which was a useful title when we had an empire… and the country that did best out of the empire was Scotland of course. They were much of the entrepreneurial class within the empire. But I just think it’s again with the close of empire, that particularly Scotland, but certainly Wales began to see that one way of readjusting themselves when we no longer had an empire and this mega world role was to think about their own identity and for some reason, that again I don’t understand – the English were not encouraged to do so.
ES: On the contrary, everything the establishment can do to stop English identity being taken up – that’s how it seems to us (the CEP) anyway…
FF: Yes, sure.
ES: Your question at PMQS last week – great question – do you think Mr Cameron just fobbed you off their?
FF: I think two things; one is he’d just been given a good pasting by the leader of the opposition, so he wasn’t in the best of moods. But also it was a slightly shocking wake-up call that he’s not as nimble on his feet as some people would like to think he is. And obviously he wasn’t expecting a question from me and he wasn’t expecting that question. And he answered a question that I hadn’t actually asked. That was about keeping the United Kingdom together, whereas I think now, where we are, the only way of keeping it together is to have a sense of fairness between the different nations which means that England has got to have its own devolution measure.
ES: An English parliament then?
FF: It’s certainly got to be stages on it, most things in this country don’t take the big leap in that way. I think the first move is to ensure on English laws only English MPs vote.
ES: Isn’t the bottom line that the people of England should have the choice, in the same way the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish have…
FF: Absolutely
ES: We deserve a vote on ‘the regions’ that seem to be resurfacing Vs an English parliament and the status quo?
FF: Yes. I think… I’m against the regions for two reasons; one is that we’d have to create a new machinery for them, but secondly, that’s how the EU views England as so many regions…
ES: Not as England at all…
FF: I’m not keen on that game. The don’t wish to deal with England. They would like to deal with different provinces and break up the United Kingdom in that way.
ES: Wouldn’t an English parliament devolving power down to the established county system work better?
FF: First of all we need a set-up where it’s only English votes for English measures.
ES: And do you think that’s going to happen?
FF: I think it will happen yes. I’m not saying we would meet as an English parliament or group in the House of Commons but on other issues in a sense have a federal system whereby other MPs would be debating foreign affairs and defence and deciding those issues. Of course what that does mean is devolving to the other countries the powers to raise taxes that they may not be to keen on.
ES: Well the Scots seem quite keen on that, or the SNP do anyway…
FF: I don’t know if push came to shove whether they’d be too keen…
ES: You’ve had a couple of goes with Early Day Motions. Take EDM 2426 last year. “This House should establish a select committee to report on the case for and against establishing an English Parliament.”This seemed to be very fairly worded so that even an MP opposed to an English parliament you could hardly object to it. And yet there it got only eight signatures – what’s going on there?
FF: I know, again it’s that inability to step into the future by many MPs
ES: It’s like an ostrich with its head in the dirt surely?
FF: I think it’s like rabbits in front of oncoming headlights
ES: So, you did a previous EDM in 2007 on the English question that got 20 signatures – things are going the wrong way aren’t they?
FF: I know, but that’s up to you getting your supporters to get your MPs to sign it – you’ve got a job there to do.
ES: We try. My own MP for instance is a stone wall on any English issue whatsoever…
FF: What’s amazing of course is that when the leadership moves they’ll all jump. That’s my experience from the past.
ES: So are you planning any more EDMs?
FF: Not at the moment, I’m thinking of writing to the Prime Minister and set out what I was actually asking him, not what he though I was asking.
ES: What else can you as a single MP do to make things fairer for the people of England?
FF: Not much really. We just need to open up a front effectively.
ES: OK. What about the Labour Party? The Labour Party has got Scottish Labour and Welsh Labour and UK Labour, isn’t it time for English Labour Party? FF: I think there’s a real opportunity for Labour to reposition itself and for people to think about us in different ways before the Tories who will in the end sweep up the English question because they’ll see there’s no alternative for them and there’s huge political advantage for them. If that happens we’re dead as a party, we’ll never win. We won’t win in England other than in an exceptional year and we won’t win in the UK.
We could now actually make it a game changing issue for people to think the people who take the English question seriously is the Labour party. My fear is that we won’t do it and we’ll certainly be very active as permanent opposition but that’s not a role that I relish.
ES: The coalition is actually incredibly weak on England…
FF: Sure
ES: Even though they’ve been voted in on the back of English votes. Things have got worse for the English since the coalition came to power.
FF: Yes. Well he’s talking about making more concessions to Scotland without realising the main issue is England not offering devolution plus to Scotland – that’s why I asked that question.
ES: The left’s repeated objection to an English parliament is that it will lead to a permanent Tory majority …
FF: I don’t think it would be, that’s why we should get in first.
ES: Even the results don’t bear that out, from the war onwards. It’s just not a fact, it’s a scare tactic. Isn’t the real reason MPs are against an English parliament because it would make the UK parliament obsolete?
FF: I don’t know really, literally I’m puzzled – you’d have to ask other Labour MPs.
ES: Do you think the Scots will vote for independence?
FF: No. but I think if the English had a vote on Scottish independence, they’d vote for Scottish independence
(laughs all round)ES: And what’s your view on devomax or devoplus as it’s being rolled out at the moment. where does that leave England does anyone know?
FF: I think that should come after the English question is settled, not before.
ES: OK. we’re running out of time… do you describe yourself as a Unionist?
FF: No I describe myself as English. I’ve always though of myself in those terms.
ES: As things stand, what’s in the Union for the English?
FF: Well, there are certainly lots of things because we’ve got ties of friendship and blood and all sorts of things. My strategy is about how we rescue the United Kingdom from its total break up. And putting our heads in the sand is not I think a proper response.
ES: Finally then, what’s your advice to the CEP and the English movement in general – how can we make ourselves heard? And what do we do next?
FF: I think just keep going at it. Beatrice Webb was one of the founders of the Fabian Society and Fabianism once said what her job of a reformer was to put the policies in place because when things change people want to take the policies off the shelf.* In other words if you build the boat, when the spring tide of reform comes people will jump in rather than drown and I think the job is to get the boat built. Get the English boat built so that English politicians who are not interested now will be wanting to, eager to, struggling to jump into the boat when the English spring tide of reform rises
ES: So, we’ll get there in the end if we keep at it?
FF: Oh, no question about it.
* the line became distorted at this point so it’s not 100% clear what Mr Field was saying – that’s best approximation.
